5.7.05
509. Word gesture or act intended to insult the modesty of a womanWhoever intending to insult the modesty of any woman utters any word makes any sound or gesture or exhibits any object intending that such word or sound shall be heard or that such gesture or object shall be seen by such woman or intrudes upon the privacy of such woman shall be punished with simple imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year or with fine or with both.
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IPC 499. Defamation
Whoever, by words either spoken or intended to be read, or by signs or by visible representations, makes or publishes any imputation concerning any person intending to harm, or knowing or having reason to believe that such imputation will harm, the reputation of such person, is said, except in the cases hereinafter expected, to defame that person.
IPC 500: Punishment for defamation
Whoever defames another shall be punished with simple imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.
IPC 501. Printing or engraving matter known to be defamatory
Whoever prints or engraves any matter, knowing or having good reason to believe that such matter is defamatory of any person, shall be punished with simple imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.
Unless you have undisputable evidence about all the fellas you post on this site (which will give you the benefit of exercising an exception in this law to establish IPC 509), you are in some serious trouble. You better hope no other lawyer notices this site and sues you. If you come into the court room, I dont see any way for you to avoid conviction
in a country where men are allowed to marry the women they raped, what would you define as "undisputable evidence" against people who indulge in sexual harassment all the time?
when actual bodily evidence amounts to nothing in a court of law while trying rapists, would a woman's statement about how the auto driver stares at her body in the rearview mirror count? would it count if woman after woman could get up in court and talk about how repulsive, how demeaning it is to have men mentally undress you on the street? or "claim their desires" as you so eloquently put it earlier by groping your body?
Gosh! Are you guys for real?
It's unbelievable that you guys are smart enough to visit blogs, search for penal codes and yet can discourage a blog like this.
Scared of being caught, are ya ;)?
This guy is clearly an idiot. The lawyers can only "sue" (that's the first time I've heard of suing under the IPC, what an idiot!) you if the persons concerned file a case of defamation, and this is clearly unlikely to happen. Also there's no public interest action under Section 501, victim's complaint is the usually only way in which action is taken. My (free) advice to junk_alpha is to leave the law to people who know something about it, and to do what it is that you're good at (e.g. watching porn, fantasising about "scoring" etc.)
PD.
What would you define as "undisputable evidence" ?
A video recording, a photograph that has an obscene gesture, a audio recording of a lewd proposition etc. The photographs posted on these pages has nothing of that sort in them, except perhaps an occasional scorn in the faces of the people in the photos, which is not illegal. Your word against their word is useless.
It does not matter what you know, its only what you can prove. So, inspite of all this you might still lose; but, thats beside the point. What is important is that it is prudent for a reasonable person to refrain from taking that risk, when she is aware that she might not have a strong case. But, I admit that its her call.
when actual bodily evidence amounts to nothing in a court of law while trying rapists, would a woman's statement about how the auto driver stares at her body in the rearview mirror count?
I only see scorn in the face of the auto driver in the pic. I also do not see an "word, gesture or act" with the "intent" to outrage her modesty, in the pic. Perhaps, a survey to guess the expression of the auto driver without leading the question can easily settle that. Still, its not an offense to stare! I think she is defaming the person.
would it count if woman after woman could get up in court and talk about how repulsive, how demeaning it is to have men mentally undress you on the street?
Its not an offense to look at a woman in lewd manner. God, why do you thick skulls keep on beating the dead camel? Its not a offense to stare at you, use my imagination to strip you naked, and do anything I want to you in my mind. Its my prerogative! Wake up! Sorry, but demeaning thoughts are not a offense. What is this obsession with control - why are you desperate to deciede what should and should not happen in people's minds? You cannot do it. I am certain you would not like being told what to think. Accept that there are as many kinds of thought as there are people - the new age people call it diversity!
or "claim their desires" as you so eloquently put it earlier by groping your body?
Yes, if somebody gropes you without your consent, its an offense according to 509. You can therotecially prosecute the person, and a few witnesses would be sufficent to make your case.
Scared of being caught, are ya ;)?
No, the point I wanted to make is simple. The posters circulated by Jasmine (see the entry "DO NOT CROSS THE LINE") are blatant scare tactics - despecable practices that have no place in a democracy. Poting this law is merely a demonstration that scare work either way.
This guy is clearly an idiot. The lawyers can only "sue" (that's the first time I've heard of suing under the IPC, what an idiot!) you if the persons concerned file a case of defamation... My (free) advice to junk_alpha is to leave the law to people who know something about it, and to do what it is that you're good at (e.g. watching porn, fantasising about "scoring" etc.)
Calling names is easy, unnecessary and useless. So, please gorge yourself in your shallow merriment.
... and this is clearly unlikely to happen. there's no public interest action under Section 501
You are right: Right of action on defamation lies only on with the person defamed. I realize that. However, I can still sue (or should I say, file a complaint & a suit for recovery of damages) on the behalf of the guys in the pics by doing the "unlikely" deed of finding them, educating them of the possiblity of monetary gains possible because of defamation.
Why would I do that - just because, I can. Because I have unlimited resources, unlinmited time, and lot of spite for fascists who employ scare tactics. Of course, it also helps that you can never touch me or deter me, unless you also have friends in high places - in which case, I realize it is mutually beneficial for me not pursue anything, but I dont think you do.
Of course, you do not upset me enough for me to expend that effort, but you might tick off people crazier than me - that was the intention of my first posting. So, please tell the fuitcakes to go party elsewhere if their intention is not to have a discussion, but to start a flame war
maybe women wouldn't have to resort to scare tactics if men gave them basic respect and dignity. perhaps then they wouldn't have to go on the offesive and resort to nipping the evil in the bud.i.e. thought
All action starts with thought, when a man grabs your butt or breast on the road, or rubs up against you in a bus,it started with the thought.
I think what we're looking for is more of a change of attitude, a social change rather than pointless legal battles. The camel isn't dead yet.
junk_alpha - you clearly need to be ignored because with your "unlimited resources and unlimited time", all you choose to do is argue endlessly.
j a, since you seem serious about this, what alternative do you offer? if you don't agree with it, you need a valid alternative or your disagreement is pointless.
maybe women wouldn't have to resort to scare tactics if men gave them basic respect and dignity.
Its not important why the scare tactics are used. What about different scenerio: the cops shot somebody in the head for teasing a girl. Its scary to justify the police response by saying that "ohh.. if he would not have teased the girl; he would not have been dead"! I am sure that would stop a lot more men from teasing women, but is that recourse we want as a society? What if tommorrow somebody you care gets shot in the head because girl misunderstood that he was teasing her? .... so on, so forth. Thats why we have laws and pertinent punishments. Of course, this is an exaggeartion, but it serves to state a point:
Two wrongs dont make a right. Whatever the reason, scare tactics is cheap, and in the long run dangerous.
perhaps then they wouldn't have to go on the offesive and resort to nipping the evil in the bud. All action starts with thought
I agree with the "all action starts with the thought". And my entire point is, "using this kind of propoganda (propoganda because the brochure is misleading - it implies it is illegal to stare at a woman) does not stop me from having that thought; it might scare someone from acting on it (which I doubt, because they have experience getting away with it; they are not going to read a brochure and invalidate their entire experience... may be there will be a small twinge, but thats all)". Essentially, you would have done nothing to prevent that thought from entering a person's mind. If that is your objective, the campaign is a miserable failure.
Besides, its scary that you want to control what goes on in people's heads by threatening dire consequences for having that thought! That is dangerously close to fascist thought.
Also, what is this phobia to sexual thought/lust? People are sexual beings - men & women. If you claim that you have never left lust towards a stranger, a celebrity or whoever, I would have to say you are very different from most people; that is not the experience of the majority. What you do control, is what you do with that thought. And the fundamental assumptions of a democracy is that people can legally be held are responsible for their actions (not thoughts, dreams or fanatsies, but actions).
you need a valid alternative or your disagreement is pointless.
One of the sanest comments here because you talk of ok, "whats next".. rather than "ooh... my god! he is defending the gropers!"
However, I must say that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing anything at all. I am not saying that is the case here; but, I want to tell you that the disagreement is not pointless, even if I dont have an alternative.
what alternative do you offer?
First, let's define the objective of the campaing with some tangible goals:
If, right now, a woman gets groped, on average, once every two days or whatever, then we have to begin by defining what we want to achieve: may be, by 2007, you want to make the average number of times a women gets groped is once every 4 days.
I know that does not sound like we are going to take over the world, but its sanity; you cannot turn a switch on/off and tommorrow miraculosuly have M.G. Road become a grope-free zone tommorow. It will take time; how long - 50 years, 100 years (I dont know), before a woman is hardly ever groped in Banglore. Hopefully, much soooner.
Second, define the limits of your methods
I am sure, you do not want to do anything illegal or unethical. And scare tactics is unethical.
Of course, if the brochure we to imply exaclty what the law states, simplisticly speaking "dont touch a woman without her consent", thats all well and dandy. What is wrong is to make it sound like "you will be sucked into black hole if ever look at a woman".
Then, how should you go about doing it ?
[1]
If the traffic stop antics, or whatever demonstrations do indeed inspire erstwhile gropers to think:
"ummm... these woman are protesting; oh my god, I feel horrible. How could I have violated her space for my cheap thrills. What a disgusting bastard I am.. no, I will never do this again".
Good, but I bet, their thoughts go more like this:
"damn..that bitch in miniskirt who is protesting, sure looks fine. May be I could pass by her..."
Degarding, but true: thats the world you live in. The frog is not going to turn into a prince, just coz the princess protested.
If my observations are right, then these attention-mongering antics are ineffective (and that is what I mean by saying, sometimes doing nothing is more effective than doing something - if its ineffective, its wasted resources). But, you dont have to take my word for it: Do your survey, measure people's reaction, judge the effectiveness of these methods, and make your judgement. But dont expect it to be effective just because it is creative.
[2]
May be you should spend you time going to every school, and college and talk and make demonstartions:
+ Inspire the girls to report the incidents, lobby for a special victims unit staffed by women police staff
+ Perhaps you can come with a creative progarm where it drives home to boys, really, how demeaning it is for a girl to be groped.
Perhaps, you can focus more on the woman than the men. Obviously, if every woman takes time to prosecute even 5% of that occur to her, there is going to be a significant change in the visibility of the issue; newpapers will pick it up; media might do a special program.
May be you can even set up a help line, where you can send an escort with the girl when she files a complaint, so that she wont be a lost novice....
Perhaps, you can get the police commisner to make this a priority, and set up the special victims unit to speed the process of filing a complaint...blah, blah; the time spent convinving the commisner will get more results, than using that time to stage demonstrations.
so on.. so forth.
In general, the only stipulation: Think about the action, do surveys or whatever is necessary, to make sure your actions guarentee or enhance chances for the goals to be realized. Its not rocket science; basic management & marketing.
The mere zeal to achive change is not sufficient. It can be squandered with your obsession "to be heard and to be understood". Being understood is not the most important thing in life. Getting things done, even if the methods are not glamorous, will bring you closer to the objective, than pursuing whatever idea hits you.
These are merely random alternatives; with your volunteers you can probably come up with more effective stuff. But all my suggestions boil down to this:
Know, how your methods will achieve your objectives. Demonstarting in the middle of the street, and hoping a miracle will happen to enlighten the erstwhile gropers is inane.
junk_alpha - you clearly need to be ignored because with your "unlimited resources and unlimited time", all you choose to do is argue endlessly.
You are welcome to ignore me, disagree with me, agree with me, or put me on pedestal and worship me. Whatever pleases you.
sounds like junk_alpha enjoys squabbling with the ladies :)
Besides it seems to me that he has put forward some interesting points. I think rather than arguing [arguing is easy anyone can do it] it would make more sense to see what constructive solutions we can work out together.
ps- i think it's always good to have an opposing view, helps you cover all poossibilities.
hey there!
agony aunt
agreed that junk alpha has placed opposing views.
where do you place yourself in this?
thankyou for all your comments junk a on what we could do instead
we are attempting to address/ confront things where they happen. It is another mode of operation, intention etc. by doing so we are not 'changing the world', but creating dialogue spaces.
yes there have been plans of working with schools etc. but they have been put to a later stage, when the participants have personally immersed themselves and know what goes on before they think they can tell others about it.
It's interesting to see the alternatives and opposing points of view posted in the comment boxes of entries. The suggestions to do something more
concrete than demonstrating, to stop hoping for miracles, to stop expecting that men will not grope in a year or two, to 'understand' that leching is not an offense, that a man can mentally undress a woman.
What surprises me is the complete lack of sensitivity in these comments.
Because what is not being recognised is that eve teasing or street harassment or leching or groping - call it what you want - is not seen as an offence. That's the bottom line here. It's also the starting post. As young girls in school uniforms, awkward teenagers in shorts or grown women in salwar-kameezes, we are made to think that it 'happens' and you can do nothing about it.
We've all had terrible experiences. How many of us have had our breasts grabbed? How many of us have had men in crowded buses jerking off against our backs? Do we talk about it? No. Are we made to feel like it's not our fault? No. Why? Because it happens. Men ruled by libidos, do things like this. As junk_alpha pointed out, demeaning thoughts may not be an offense under the law. But what about the scars left on a woman when it happens? The feeling that your body is dirty and unworthy, that's a playground only for lust and not tenderness? Is legality the only space for this? What about humane sensitivity?
What Jasmeen is doing with Blank Noise is trying to first get recognition that eve teasing is not okay. That just because thousands of men do it and thousands of women are victims every minute of every day, it's not bloody okay. No-one has a right to lech at my body and imagine what I look like naked. First you need to have the issue recognised and out there, in your face, before you can do anything else.
Going to the police is an option open to us. Whether or not you choose to is entirely personal. For many of us, it ceases to be a choice because of the insensitive manner in which the complaint is treated. A friend of mine was taking her morning walk when a grown man flashed himself to her. When she complained to the police, they just told her to walk elsewhere. Another was told to wear a dupatta. Another was told that men are "like that only". I was once told not to walk on Cubbon Road. Simple. Just don't walk because,again, raging libidos cannot be protected against.
The public demonstrations, banners, the pictures on the blog are not "scare tactics" or pointless. Because ultimately, unless something is taken into the public space screaming for attention, nothing can be done. The legal alternatives, educating young girls, dialogues, platforms, everything else
can only begin when people open their eyes to the issue.
Instead of constantly posing a smart answer and a legal loophole to every initiative of Blank Noise, why don't people join in? It may be very interesting and intellectually stimulating to argue for and against, to analyse and discard, to banter, to offer alternatives, to point out
mistakes, to threaten and criticise...very interesting, indeed.
But, on the 15th, how many of you are going to be there at Majestic with Jasmeen to take one step into the public space? Because eventually that's
what counts.
Jasmeen - as far as the issue of street harassment goes, i'm glad that someone is finally drawing attention to the severity of the problem we face. And i sincerely hope that this will bring about awareness and help effect a change in attitude towards women.
as far as the war of words above is concerned, I think you've got enough eloquent speakers on both sides, so i'll reserve my opinions for now.
I do hope that this develops into something practical and constructive, so that people are able to see and understand the real need rather than a mob of angry women.
sounds like junk_alpha enjoys squabbling with the ladies :)
Well, you got me there. You see, I needed to start this little tempest to wake up the sleepy town ;)
But ladies, forgive me for having been insenstive,
Your are god's finest creations; every one of you,
Though I criticize you for being bold & thinking anew,
I am all love. I think it conquers all. kyun, dont you ?
Now for some lines from a real poet:
The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest, -
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
So, lets kiss and make up; forgive and forget; I did it all in good zest.
Ciao bellas.
PS: Just want to assure you that calling you beautiful and bellas is not sexist/patronizing. I do it genuine warmth. (expalining my self, jus in case).
And all the points I make are honest & sane.
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