Comments on BLANK NOISE: from chinmayee

>> junk_alpha's approach is simply impractical an...

2006-05-22T08:43:00.000+05:30

>> junk_alpha's approach is simply impractical and his understanding of Gandhian principle is meagre, to say the least.

Plato called. He said, "perhaps its best for Vinay to look at the shadows in the cave"

>>That is a logical fallacy on so many levels. Wh...

2006-05-22T08:31:00.000+05:30

>>That is a logical fallacy on so many levels.

Which fallacy? Infact, you seem to be committing this fallacy. What are you saying? Gandhi's principles do not work in their extremes? They can apply for opposing a state, but not a person - states are made of people, if you have not noticed? Those can only be the words of person who never applied them. Their very essence lies in the strength they derive at their logical end.

In applying these principles [principles of ahmisa], Gandhi did not balk from taking them to their most logical extremes. In 1940, when invasion of the British Isles by Nazi Germany looked imminent, Gandhi offered the following advice to the British people (Non-Violence in Peace and War):

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them." [Source]

Before making erroneous assumptions, it would be prudent to actually understand the context. You say, "you cannot change the mind of a molester by talking to him, but only by scaring him (using mis-leading posters and scare tactics, i.e., misinforming people that staring is against the law)"? I say, "you can". What do you think Gandhi will say?

Also, please note that I have nothing against Jasmine or her art, I only make a specific criticism about the efficacy of her methods.
PS: Hi Jasmine. Looks like Blank Noise is making a lot of noise. Good. I am happy for you :)

In my opinion, demonstrations and protests is defi...

2006-03-07T05:58:00.000+05:30

In my opinion, demonstrations and protests is definitely a first step to make people to take notice of some everyday small-scale violence against women as "CRIME -Invading somebody's private space". Several of the movements ( black rights, women rights in US ) has indeed started with simple demonstrations and protests. Even though this effort may not change a serial rapist or molestor, it would make a normal guy to think twice before committing it. These demonstrations will let that these normal guys know that women do NOT enjoy being groped by every tom and jack. Also, there is a possiblity that people seeing the demonstrations in future would feel strongly for the women and would come forward to rescue the victim if such an act is committed against women.

One can also borrow the approach used to create awareness for shop-lifiting that shop-lifting is a serious crime. That approach ( like you see in Wal-mart Restrooms in US ) is to use postures that teach general public that physical man-handling of women is a CRIME.

I think previous commenters Gaurav and Shriram refuted the preposterous claims/preaching put forward by junk_alpha very well. junk_alpha's approach is simply impractical and his understanding of Gandhian principle is meagre, to say the least. I agree with some other commenters that sex education in high school and open soceity is a mature approach and it attacks the problem at its root.

Very cool blog. It's hard to find decent blogs wi...

2006-01-29T19:57:00.000+05:30

Very cool blog. It's hard to find decent blogs with good content today, but yours was enjoyable for me to read. Thanks!

**Cassie**
My Free Love Spells site.

Hi!I have visited many blogs and found good idea a...

2006-01-02T12:15:00.000+05:30

Hi!
I have visited many blogs and found good idea about blogging but your blog is the most interesting and will help me to become a better bloger; keep up the good work.
All the best,
Cleveland
pc surveillance camera, highway safety product, wireless home alarm, color surveillance camera, home protection dog, pepper spray demonstration, purchase stun gun, personal security detail, surveillance camera 1, alarm company, surveillance camera law, personal alarm, female self defense, remote surveillance camera, bulk pepper spray, paul mace, clifford alarm, infrared surveillance camera, safety first product, mini pepper spray, home window protection, music mace, stun gun manufacturer, home safety product, stun gun works, self defense technique, product safety report, home page protection, pepper spray foam, cripa pepper spray, gun missle stun, car alarm remote, streetwise stun gun, tazer stun gun, window burglar alarm, alarm monitoring service, traffic safety product, basic self defense, mace windu lightsaber, pepper nasal spray, bath safety product, pepper spray strength, lumidor safety product,

Hello, you blog is funny and informative. I have a...

2005-11-07T07:08:00.000+05:30

Hello, you blog is funny and informative. I have a website about improving your adult sex life. Please visit if you want to enjoy sex more in a proper way.

Hi - I really like your website. I have one on ad...

2005-10-25T11:06:00.000+05:30

Hi - I really like your website. I have one on adidas martial art here is the link to it. Come visit it and let me know what you think.

junk_alphaYou think that you can justify your bull...

2005-07-26T11:45:00.000+05:30

junk_alpha

You think that you can justify your bullshit by taking the name of Gandhiji? That is a logical fallacy on so many levels. Gandhiji opposing a state which was doing something wrong. You are doing his philosophy of non-violence an extreme disservice by stretching it to this extreme.

So you advise people to buy molestors lunch because you bought lunch for a guy who accused you of being a terrorist. Calling an innocent person a terrorist, as despicable it is, is not a crime. Molesting a woman is. By comparing being called Bin laden's pal to a woman's harrassment, you are cheapening the magnitude of frustration felt by women.

Yes, yes, you will say "Oh no, I am just saying compassion makes people repent". I am saying that showing compassion is easier said that done. Imagine if you were walking with your wife and sister and someone molested them. Would you, in all honesty, still buy them lunch and talk to them?

Gandhiji's definition of ahimsa was...suffering in one's own person, instead of inflicting violence on others. By what stretch of imagination is Jasmeen's project inflicting violence? In fact it is Gandhian in the proper spirit.

What you are suggesting is puerile.

Junk_alpha:I cannot discern your gender for sure b...

2005-07-21T14:33:00.000+05:30

Junk_alpha:

I cannot discern your gender for sure but I'm assuming you're male. I'm a guy too - and I've tried the exact same thing that you spoke about.

I once saw a male classmate 'accidentally touch' a girl on the road. I took him aside and spoke to him for over 2 hours on why it is fundamentally wrong,etc. I spoke to him about his mother and sister, I spoke to him about how he would feel if something similar had happened to them.

I spoke to him about he would feel if he were abused homosexually. I spoke to him about freedom, rights,love and all those other nice things you mentioned.

Guess what? This guy nodded his head and promised to reform his ways - and seemed quite sincere at it. He's not your average roadside Romeo - quite smart, near the top of the class in a well-known engineering college.

A week later, I found out that he had gotten into trouble for groping a girl in a train.

I don't know which world you live in Junk_alpha, but it is definitely not ours.

Before you argue that it is wrong to generalize from one incident, let me assure you that I have seen umpteen other incidents where friendly advice (from the victims, from other men,women) have falled on deaf ears.

One such guy once confessed to me (similar to the confession on Mangs blogpost about her trip to Chennai) "Man..I lost control".

Do I have an easy solution to this? Nope. I think this needs to be fought on multiple levels.

1. Be pragmatic and practical: Women need to understand that the problem exists today and be prepared to deal with it and fight back. This might mean self-defence, martial arts, pepper spray,etc. It scares the life out of me when close female friends of mine choose to walk alone on lonely roads at night saying something along the lines of "It is my right to do so".Realize that I'm *not* justifying the crime - just observing that becoming a martyr is not going to help anyone.

I'm not saying "put your head down and put up with it". I'm saying "Carry pepper spray and don't hesitate to use it" and "Be sensible".

In an ideal world, this wouldn't be needed - but we don't live in an ideal world where we can leave our house doors unlocked when we go on vacation.

2. Education at every level:
If kids see movie heroes eve-teasing women and this behaviour being deemd as 'acceptable',the situation is not going to concern. We need education at all levels of society- from school kids to college. Efforts like this are a great start.

3. Support from the authorities:
The government swings into action only when there is a well-publicized incident. We need (and movements like this will help in that) recognition of this as a society wide problem just like,for e.g, terrorism is recognized as a problem.

I don't know how these can be achieved though. I do know that this won't be easy at all.

Hmmm,Its been great, to see people coming fwd ... ...

2005-07-14T12:51:00.000+05:30

Hmmm,

Its been great, to see people coming fwd ...
Yesterday I heard from another friend of mine,
A message filled with filth.

I dont know what people gain from that $#???
I will see his end forget it but...
I am angry frustrated because ... He is just another male, who is making us feel ashamed.

Any way I hope we will change.
Change for a good cause.

-
Nature gave freedom to Enjoy The beauty,
But not to scractch tear and spoil.

Jasmine, >> how many of us even do that? ... what ...

2005-07-14T02:44:00.000+05:30

Jasmine,

>> how many of us even do that? ... what do you say about threat? wat do you say for instincts? who feels threatened and why?

Of course, you have instincts - hence you react. Also, you have choice - so you act. Distancing oneself is not instinctual, but after repeated exposure, one would want to think of a more rational and effective way, and hence stumble upon "distancing oneself..." as an effective approach. Arguing against "distancing onself" because it is not instinctual, is like the harasser's argument that "he could not control yourself". As you would say to him, "control yourself", I would say to you "distance yourself".

>> what do i say to you? its like saying ... "ghar mein maa behen nahi hai kya?"

No, its not, because "ghar ... kya" is cliche and confrontational. I read a post somewhere about a girl who went to theater with her brother, and the brother bashed up a guy because he was touching her, after she complained to her brother. Then, after a couple of days when she was a movie alone, and turned back to say a few words to another guy who was groping her, she was shocked to see her brother who was touching her because he had not recongnized her!

Now, imagine you are that girl, what would say to your brother ? ... random chastizing will only embaress him, and perhaps he will be more careful next time; but it will not have him abandon his ways. Would you invite him to one of the internventions, and hope to reform him ? And, if you cant think of saying anything substantial to someone you know so well, and someone you love, I wonder how one could expect to give messages to stranger (in your way, or in my way)and expect results. Think about it.

Of course, I completly understand the nature of your project and I am not suggesting you be a reasercher. I am only answering the questions you posed.

whatever u women might say, i know for a fact that...

2005-07-12T17:07:00.000+05:30

whatever u women might say, i know for a fact that women enjoy being groped as much as i enjoy groping them

ttg I agree with you 100%

2005-07-12T15:04:00.000+05:30

ttg I agree with you 100%

"I want you to remember, that like me, we are some...

2005-07-12T14:39:00.000+05:30

"I want you to remember, that like me, we are somebody daughters, sisters, mothers; we are not objects; I would appreaciate if you would not do this anymore, and remember this meal everytime you would feel like groping a woman, [...al the nice adjectives..]"

what do i say to you?
its like saying
"ghar mein maa behen nahi hai kya?"

NO WAY.

"Hate the crime. Not the criminal". agree junk alp...

2005-07-12T14:33:00.000+05:30

"Hate the crime. Not the criminal".

agree junk alpha, but this is only possible with some distancing from the self.

when one starts it is important to experience anger and show it to the criminal instead of blaming the self and apologizing for her/(his?) body. from the very begining we are taught to apologize, and blame ourselves..." ask for it".

how many of us even do that?

to look at things wholistically, victim, perpetrator, abused, accused...in this story so far we the victims have been the protagonists...

what do you say about threat? wat do you say for instincts? who feels threatened and why?

hello laksyou are welcome to come and make the eve...

2005-07-12T14:18:00.000+05:30

hello laks

you are welcome to come and make the event happen.

looking forward

Jasmeen

jasmeen has clarified what blank noise stands for....

2005-07-12T14:10:00.000+05:30

jasmeen has clarified what blank noise stands for. ttg, i have read 1984 and i am not talking about policing thoughts or 'big brother' here. if you realise that my remark has, indeed, to be taken into context, the argument needn't be carried forward.

Phew, lots of stuff happening here. I just have on...

2005-07-12T14:02:00.000+05:30

Phew, lots of stuff happening here. I just have one comment to make however:

No-one has a right to lech at my body and imagine what I look like naked

I understand that this remark has to be taken in context, and when you mean 'lech' you mean stare at you for a long period of time making you uncomfortable...

That being said, I, or anybody else in the entire world, have every single right to imagine you in whatever way I choose, as do you and this emotional statement weakens your cause.

Being civilised means deciding which thoughts to act on, and which thoughts to leave as thoughts. I can imagine you naked all day, but if I choose to not look at you in a lecherous way, or molest/touch/pass a dirty comment to you - how does this make me a "bad" person? Simply because I imagine you naked? Bullshit. If one of the aims of your project is purge men of "unclean" thoughts, then I suggest you read a book called 1984, by a man called George Orwell. But if your project is to prevent men from acting on those unclean thoughts, I think it would be far more successful.

One more thing - it is true that Man will never be free of his vices. So it is best for those vices to have some outlet. In the Western world, that outlet is called legalised prostitution . That outlet doesn't exist in this country. And the result is in front of you. A sexual liberation is required (and is happening parallel to all these barbaric atrocities) of both the men and women of this country.

junk alpha"[Deep Breath]Though I have several argu...

2005-07-12T12:38:00.000+05:30

junk alpha

"[Deep Breath]
Though I have several arguments about what you seek to achieve is right or wrong, I will not talk about them because they are irrelevant to my point, which is simple:

I want you to convince me that because of your demonstrations, some of these results will take place:

1. After a certain time, the percentage of men groping women will decrease by 20% , 30% or whatever.
2. The authorities will not dismiss your complaints by asking you to make the adjustments.
3. Number of men who strip women naked in their heads will decrease in number by x%."

the 'strategy' you expect us/ me to articulate is a difficult one. Blank Noise is not set out in its 'AIM' AND 'GOALS' to change statistics and give you the 2+2=4 results.

there has to be some room for a process that can be lyrical and intuitive. there are times when research methodolgies are applied to the project, but by itself the project does not take that form.

it is a new territory for all of us here. first as a 'vcitim of street sexual harassment' and as an artist it is worth seeing how art and activism= public art creates an impact ,generates dialogue,.our approach is a result of our background. traditionally you would expect an activist to do this, or a researcher, i chose to be neither or both.

DITTO those are my parting words too....Thank you ...

2005-07-12T02:03:00.000+05:30

DITTO
those are my parting words too....

Thank you once again junk_alpha

I think you all should go and read the book Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption
Here is one deep quote in that

"There's a fine line there. What it comes down to, Red, is some people refuse to get their hands dirty at all. That's called sainthood, and the pigeons land on your shoulders and crap all over your shirt. The other extreme is to take a bath in the dirt and deal any goddamned thing that will turn a dollar - guns, switchblades, big H, what the hell. You ever have a con come up to you and offer you a contract?"

I nodded. It's happened a lot of time over the years. You are, after all, the man who can get it. And they figure if you can get them a nine-bolt battery for their transistor radio or a carton of Luckies or a lid of reefer, you can put them in touch with a guy who'll use a knife.

"Sure you have," Andy agreed. "But you don't do it. Because guys like us, Red, we know there's a third choice. An alternative to staying simon-pure or bathing in the filth and the slime. It's the alternative that grown-ups all over the world pick. You balance off your walk through the hog-wallow against what it gains you. You choose the lesser of two evils and try to keep your good intentions in front of you. And I guess you judge how well you're doing by how well you sleep at night... and what your dreams are like."

I shall quote the last words in the book by a man who discovers freedom by acting and not reacting

Sure I remember the name. Zihuatanejo. A name like that is just too pretty to forget.

I find I am excited, so excited I can hardly hold the pencil in my trembling hand. I think it is the excitement that only a free man can feel, a free man starting a long journey whose conclusion in uncertain.

I hope Andy is down there.

I hope I can make it across the border.

I hope to see my friend and shake his hand.

I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.

I hope.

My only parting words are:When some one harasses y...

2005-07-12T01:20:00.000+05:30

My only parting words are:

When some one harasses you, angers you, invades your space or questions your dignity, you indignation is righteous. You have the right to feel that you want to butcher that bastard; you have the right to squint at him, question his humanity... think of him as a strange, twisted bastard; you have the right to wish you could drag him through the streets and teach him a lesson; you have the right to prosecute him, punish him, wish upon as much humiliation as he caused you to experience. Your anger is justified, and your indignation righteous.

But, you also have the choice to be better person; you also have the choice to not dehumanize him like he did to you; you also have the choice to talk to him - may be through a demonstartion, may be through a profound statment though art, may be through a kind word like he never thought; you have the choice to sit next to sinner and acknowldege that you share with him the basic humanity that binds us all which he never did; you have the choice to care for the person who disgusts you; you have the choice to choose mighty love over righteous indignation; you have the choice to believe that you can achieve far more by not lashing out, and by reaching out; you have the choice - chose wisely.

Thats all.

Perhaps, you will find a little inspiration here

ciao.

Agony Aunt,If your question is, why am I belligere...

2005-07-12T00:58:00.000+05:30

Agony Aunt,

If your question is, why am I belligerent in my reply to the following comment
("Give me an effing break ! Treat him with love? Reform him ? "),
when I am advocating love ?, then my answer is as follows:

It was not important for me that the annonymous poster could understand the argument. I just wanted to make a cocky comment, like the poster did. I guess, you could say I reacted, instead of acted, because it was not important for me to act (the cause here "to help the annonymous poster understand" was not important to me), but only to pick a bone with him/her.

But, those comments have nothing to do what Jasmine is trying to do. I agreed that if the purpose of the project is merely to have some light shed on sexual harrassment, I am not criticizing it. The analogies of the peaceful fighters were to explain that "merely kicking in the shins, and using pepper spray" were not the only way to achieve change with regards to sexual harrassment. It was NOT to imply that the demonstration was some how violent. No, not at all.

And yes, Jasmine does deserve credit for her time, effort and passion she invests in the project. My disagreemnt was never about criticizing someone personally; I only asked how demonstarting could help reduce sexual harrasment for women. And, the answer given my several of you was that, " the primary purpose of the project was not reduce sexual hrrasment, but to just get a buzz about the issue". That was good answer, and I have no criticism if that is the goal.

i meant i take up the responsibility of whatever ...

2005-07-11T21:35:00.000+05:30

i meant i take up the responsibility of whatever i say ..... sorry for the wrong english...its too indian ;-)

I am diplomatic. I am indian. :-) no comments on t...

2005-07-11T18:48:00.000+05:30

I am diplomatic. I am indian. :-) no comments on that. :-))

Again... I repeat that i would love to come and see the project happening. If u people feel like admitting me.

Am i being diplomatic here too? :-)

I owe whatever i say. Please read whatever i have written carefully. Please.

laks- sorry i was just a bit confused about the re...

2005-07-11T15:11:00.000+05:30

laks- sorry i was just a bit confused about the response made by Junk_a above. In regard to -
"Give me an effing break ! Treat him with love? Reform him ?"
I find your approach very diplomatic, which is very Indian of you;
and just to be clear, I wasn't trying to pick a bone with either your or junk_alpha.
I believe that if we listen to each others opinions instead of slamming it down each others throats, some kind of progress can be made.
As I said before, Jasmeen is drawing attention to the problem of harassment,not hitting people over the head with baseball bats and so far it's working.
You may agree or disagree with what she's doing, but fact is, she has brought the topic to the table and it can't be ignored.
she deserves credit for that.